Sessions With Cesar: More Tips on Dog Aggression

25 Responses to Sessions With Cesar: More Tips on Dog Aggression

1. captmicha says:

   November 17, 2011 at 8:11 am

   @AboutDogTraining3 Thank you! Exactly! All this “energy” crap is really annoying and is incorrect usage of the word.
2. captmicha says:

   November 17, 2011 at 8:13 am

   @lolosofli That is incorrect usage of the word energy. How you and Cesar are using the word doesn’t compute with any definitions of the word in any dictionaries. Maybe you both mean attitude, behavior, mien, demeanor, etc.? But not energy.
3. grettagrids says:

   November 21, 2011 at 6:51 am

   yea my rottie is very viscous… with her TONGUE
4. mebooradley says:

   November 21, 2011 at 11:22 pm

   @AboutDogTraining3 I think the problem is the use of the term violence. Corrections are not necessarily violence or abuse. Milan’s approach has been very very effective for many many people and dogs. But there are many alternatives available. Its funny that so many go around claiming that Cesar’s way is wrong and bad. Why do you think Cesar has not spent his time criticizing others methods? Perhaps he is to busy helping people and dogs. -Just a thought Criticize less, do more.
5. nuttman2 says:

   November 22, 2011 at 2:07 am

   @KristinaTsai everybody who knows anything about dogs knows this guy is a joke he is successful becuase his system works well on TV
6. AboutDogTraining3 says:

   November 22, 2011 at 3:15 am

   @mebooradley, violence is the correct term. It accurately describes what is happening. If we look at The Ultimate DW episode guide we see that Millan’s approach is not as effective as the marketing makes it seem. His success rate is 50% and if we break down in groups when it comes to fear/anxiety his failure rate is 100%. It’s what we would expect since we know from various studies in several species that punishment only increases anxiety and reactivity.
7. mebooradley says:

   November 22, 2011 at 3:36 am

   @AboutDogTraining3 I agree that marketing is only skin deep. There is no reliable controlled study of CM’s success rate and even then defining “success” is subjective. There are to many factors involved, even simply the presence of cameras pollutes what could be called applicable data. Yes, it is what is done after the increase of fear or anticipation of punishment that begins to define some methods. Violent? Yes without a doubt all change is inherently violent. All manipulation alters the path
8. AboutDogTraining3 says:

   November 22, 2011 at 4:02 am

   @mebooradley, from his own book. When the update reads “still aggressive” or “still needs corrections” or something similar, then it’s fair to say that his approach didn’t work. Specially since he used to declare dogs rehabilitated at the end of the episodes.

   What happens is – as many experts have said – driving a dog into helplessness, and catatonia and calling it ‘calm’..

   You would be hard pressed to convince any reasonable person that Karen Pryor training is a violent event.
9. mebooradley says:

   November 22, 2011 at 4:13 am

   @AboutDogTraining3 I personally think Skinner’s methods are very violent and I am not alone. The implications of the work are many faceted but compliance is attained via manipulation. As to your data there is your problem. CM’s method did not create the problem in the first place. In his absence it is reasonable to assume the owner recreated what CM had fixed. In the very least this is a valid point. In my experience it is the owner who is the x factor not the method or the dog.
10. AboutDogTraining3 says:

    November 22, 2011 at 4:35 am

    @mebooradley, you realize Skinner is dead right??? And the only reason you’d avoid discussing Pryor is b/c you simply can’t claim these methods are violent.

    And Millan’s method are the cause of the problem. Often the clients describe how they tried Millan’s approach (hitting/rolling ect) and it’s not working.. The hybrid wolf couple were an excellent example of defensive aggression that the idiot owners were blaming on the dogs.
11. AboutDogTraining3 says:

    November 22, 2011 at 4:38 am

    @mebooradley, CM also induces aggression by attacking the animals. S5E3, he gets bitten and the owner says the dog has NEVER bitten anyone before (even though he made many aggressive displays) Millan exclaims that he got bitten because he “challenged” the dog. This is a clear case of Millan transforming a dog from one that simply pretended to be aggressive to one that actually bites.
12. mebooradley says:

    November 22, 2011 at 4:44 am

    @AboutDogTraining3 Yes. Skinner is dead lol. He is considered Pryor’s predecessor in many circles of thought. And so the roots of “positive reinforcement” even many of the terminological idiosyncrasies come from his work. Fundamentally manipulation is violent and behavior modification is manipulation. If there was not an existing problem CM would not have been called to begin with. It can be argued that the “wolf couple” was misapplying CM’s methods.
13. AboutDogTraining3 says:

    November 22, 2011 at 5:11 am

    @mebooradley, I still don’t see how you can claim manipulation is fundamentally violent when no violence is used under R+ scheme? Other than merely doubling down on the emphasis & repeating the claim, can you elaborate on this? I think you are wrong, but w/o further explanation it will turn into a YES/NO game of ping-pong. So, if I’m free shaping a behavior… where is the violence?
    As to season 5episode3, CM was called for aggressive display & turned it into actual aggression. .
14. mebooradley says:

    November 22, 2011 at 5:28 am

    @AboutDogTraining3 There is no physical violence. The end result is arguably cataclysmic, by comparison, to the dogs mind. In effect “positive” methods reach the same end or basically the same end via different means. The mental effects of avoid this to get this or do this to get that are in essence the same or at least highly similar. The violence is in assuming or manipulating the dogs will. To me that is what all methods move towards- the control of the dogs mind. -cont
15. mebooradley says:

    November 22, 2011 at 5:35 am

    @AboutDogTraining3 Cont- The ramifications from mind control are many. So this is in effect violent when compared to the dogs mind without the influence of owner. To me personally getting from point A to point B with a dog which is healthy happy obedient and symbiotic is a success regardless of the means, within reason. And it is the “within reason” element that I think is actually being debated most of the time.
16. AboutDogTraining3 says:

    November 22, 2011 at 5:54 am

    @mebooradley, so if I understand, to you any form of manipulation can fall under violence? This position seems extreme to me but can be at it can be defended. It also means you are being violent toward me in arguing your p.o.v.

    Though the science indicates there is a great difference in getting behavior based on Punishment or Reward. Schalke’s work on e-collar training suggests high degree of stress as measured by cortisol levels. Work of Ledoux indicates change in brain chemistry, and…
17. AboutDogTraining3 says:

    November 22, 2011 at 6:06 am

    other studies show decreased synaptic connections. Earlier work on rats shows that permanent changes in the brain can be induced by punishment and stress. None of these negative changes are observed with R+ approach.

    From a less technical pov, we can often see the diff in obedience competitions & the lack of willingness and vigor shown by aversive trained dogs. And of course none of the fallout associated with P.

    See: “Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational training methods”
18. mebooradley says:

    November 22, 2011 at 6:12 am

    @AboutDogTraining3 I don’t debate any of the findings and I believe that further research will continue to show the changes caused by stress and or punishment. The aspects yet unexplored are how these changes negatively affect the the brain. The changes are physical yes but trauma is a part of life and avoiding it can have its own negative effects. Dogs naturally learn via negative stimuli. has benefits but the negatives are not yet explored. An example of a negative effect -cont
19. mebooradley says:

    November 22, 2011 at 6:18 am

    @AboutDogTraining3 Cont-could be the dissociation disorder being observed in police dogs across the country and Europe. Dogs view their work as a game and are seemingly unaware or unable to connect to the dire nature of the situation when confronting a perpetrator. This needs further study obviously but cannot be ruled a non-symptom of the new movement in training. Brain formation and ability to deal or not deal with stress be it environmental or man made is largely unexplored.
20. mebooradley says:

    November 22, 2011 at 6:24 am

    @AboutDogTraining3 What is the difference between a hardened veteran and a new recruit? Some would say experience which cannot be separated from stress. You may know more on the subject than me but I find a growing minority of animal and canine behaviorists exploring these aspects/consequences of positive reinforcement training. I am not a “kicker” or a “clicker” with respect to my methods but a cow dog or hog dog who’s been cut or caught learns fast and is better for it- in most cases.
21. AboutDogTraining3 says:

    November 22, 2011 at 6:32 pm

    @mebooradley, given the stories and prevalence of PTSD among returning soldiers, your comparison seems apt.
22. mebooradley says:

    November 22, 2011 at 6:44 pm

    @AboutDogTraining3 Separate issue but point taken.
23. sze96random says:

    November 23, 2011 at 7:11 pm

    we’re all dog lovers, can’t we just all come to a decision to respect each other and stop all this argument about Cesar? btw, I do love Cesar, and he inspirea me!
24. sze96random says:

    November 23, 2011 at 7:12 pm

    inspires*
25. surleyguru says:

    December 10, 2011 at 4:42 am

    @TheKALProductions Another know it all, leadership is the most important part of dog ownership. There is always an alpha, that must be you all dogs are subordinates. Humanizing dogs is never healthy.